Taxes & Bar Stool Economics

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[this is good]
Excellent analysis.
[this is good]

When I first read that story, I thought I knew where you were going this, and I was prepared to...well, to write basically the rest of the post that you wrote. What a pleasant surprise to find something well written and well considered. You have pleased the almighty GinBaby. Let us have the much-discussed beer now.

It works out nicely in the second case not because you've changed the amounts the men pay after the reduction, but because you have changed their attitudes toward the reduction. A very different thing indeed. Had this attitude been applied in the first scenario the rich man would not have gotten mad and taken his money home.
I did think this was a well written point, but I will have to agree with the Queen. It is easy to make your point on emotion which is what the different attitudes reflect.

I did think this was a well written point, but I will have to agree with the Queen. It is easy to make your point on emotion which is what the different attitudes reflect.

It wasn't purely emotion; if you take a look at the amount of tax decrease, you'll notice that the spread in the second version ($5:$2 - with two groups getting the max decrease) is lower than the spread in the first ($10:$1, with the next highest being half the highest). In both cases, all are better off. But in the second case, the human tendency to feel shortchanged is taken into account.

Given the subtlety of this point, perhaps I should make it more obvious to non-economics majors. Right after I finish off that beer...

John

But in the second case, the human tendency to feel shortchanged is taken into account.

And you don't call that an emotional response? All you've really done is shift the potential of feeling short changed from the lower income group to the higher income group. It would be my opinion that the latter group is less likely to feel short changed and complain because they have a better understanding of how the system works, but if they didn't I should think they would be just as likely to complain as the first group was in the first scenario.

Given the subtlety of this point, perhaps I should make it more obvious to non-economics majors. Right after I finish off that beer...
I would say what we are discussing here isn't economics so much as is it psychology. And you are on much shakier ground in terms of being able to predict the outcome.
You could just as easily say that the first four who pay nothing now get $5 each because they deserve it for being poor. Then they run out and buy lottery tickets. That is more in keeping with human nature, ie: the poor keep doing the same thing with their money that they have done all along. That is why they are poor in the first place. Just because they get a handout does not mean they will suddenly become responsible spenders (remember the Katrina handouts?).

Or, if you give the entire $20 to the rich guy, he saves it for a year then opens his own brewery where the poor guys all get jobs.

Or how about if they leave it as a tip for the bartender (middle class guy) and he saves it and eventually buys the bar. Then he is so grateful to the group that they drink for free from then on. But the poor guys are mad because they have been drinking for free all along and they missed out on all those lottery tickets and could have struck it rich by then. So what happens next? Do the poor guys get mad enough to go home and stop drinking?

"What should I do with my extra money?" asked the sixth man.

"Yeah, that's a good question!" exclaimed the fifth man. "I've got an extra couple of bucks "“ what should I do?"

"Save it" advised the tenth man. So they all saved their extra money for a month, then went and spent it on another round of beer. As a result, the bar tender was able to make more profit, which allowed him to lower his prices further. And the men were able to drink more often for less money. And that made everyone very happy indeed.
And here you are assuming that the poorer men will take the rich man's advice and save their money. Probably won't happen. As Darcy said, they will most likely continue with their old habits. Oh, they may use it to pay off their credit card bills (or they might start charging a lot more on their cards because now they can afford a higher minimum payment). They may decide that they can now afford to take their wives out to dinner once a week. Or they might decide they can now afford a car payment and so go out to buy themselves all new cars.

In short, you are making the assumption that these men think about money like you and I do. If you've been paying attention to the world around you it should be easy to see that we are the exception, not the rule.
You could just as easily say that the first four who pay nothing now get $5 each because they deserve it for being poor. Then they run out and buy lottery tickets....
Or, if you give the entire $20 to the rich guy, he saves it for a year then opens his own brewery where the poor guys all get jobs....
Or how about if they leave it as a tip for the bartender (middle class guy) and he saves it and eventually buys the bar....
Exactly my point (or at least one of them) - all of those are good hypotheses, based on observed human behavior. The fable is equally compelling in all those variants. So what is the fundamental lesson, applicable beyond the field of economics, that this exercise should have illustrated?

John
And here you are assuming that the poorer men will take the rich man's advice and save their money. Probably won't happen. As Darcy said, they will most likely continue with their old habits.
It is at least as likely as the poor people ganging up on the rich to mug him.

Oh, they may use it to pay off their credit card bills (or they might start charging a lot more on their cards because now they can afford a higher minimum payment). They may decide that they can now afford to take their wives out to dinner once a week. Or they might decide they can now afford a car payment and so go out to buy themselves all new cars.
In the real world, these are all good outcomes from the viewpoint of the secondary purpose of taxes (to build wealth by moving money through the economy). But in the fable, they all involve spending their money outside the bar; i.e., putting it in countries other than the US (which was the "moral" of the original). In the fable, the only choices given were drink here, save your money, or drink somewhere else.

In short, you are making the assumption that these men think about money like you and I do. If you've been paying attention to the world around you it should be easy to see that we are the exception, not the rule.
Well, I make the assumption that they think about finances as we do, which is not that unrealistic. I doubt that they think about money much more than the average person. After all, if they truly thought about money, they'd ask the bartender how long he can stay open if he sells $100 worth of drinks for $80...

John
It is at least as likely as the poor people ganging up on the rich to mug him.
I'll agree with that.

Well, I make the assumption that they think about finances as we do
Picky, picky, picky. 8:-)
What do you think of the Fair Tax, which is like a flat tax or national sales tax but includes gov't subsidies to cover basic costs of living up to a certain amount? At least, that's how I remember it from the book.
My thinking is it would be too drastic to implement all at once.

What do you think of the Fair Tax, which is like a flat tax or national sales tax but includes gov't subsidies to cover basic costs of living up to a certain amount? At least, that's how I remember it from the book.

Look at what the numbers say and then decide for yourself. According to the US BLS, there were 117,356,000 "consumer units" in 2005 that spent an average of $46,409 each, for a total spending base of $5,446,374,604,000. If we are to satisfy criterion 1 (pay all government bills in full) using a sales tax on retail goods and services only (which is the most common form that this is given in), then it requires a 51% national sales tax [1]. In essence, everything will cost 50% more under this plan.

If we include rebates for the poor, then this simply increases both the actual and the effective tax rate while shifting the burden from the poor to the middle class. Under the "Fair tax" plan, the consumer unit would have had to spend $69,910 once the new sales taxes went into effect, in order to buy the same amount of consumer goods. So what is the net effect? The middle class sees a huge effective tax rate hike, while the upper classes see modest to no increases - and corporations get off without any taxes at all (as only retail sales and goods are taxed).

Here are the specifics if everybody pays [2]:
Number Spending Income FT=30% ETR FTA FT=50% ETR FTA
23,441,000 $19,120 $9,676 198% $5,736.0 59% $134,457,576,000.0 $9,560.0 99% $224,095,960,000.0
23,477,000 $28,921 $25,546 113% $8,676.3 34% $203,693,495,100.0 $14,460.5 57% $339,489,158,500.0
23,448,000 $39,098 $42,622 92% $11,729.4 28% $275,030,971,200.0 $19,549.0 46% $458,384,952,000.0
23,497,000 $54,354 $67,813 80% $16,306.2 24% $383,146,781,400.0 $27,177.0 40% $638,577,969,000.0
23,494,000 $90,469 $147,737 61% $27,140.7 18% $637,643,605,800.0 $45,234.5 31% $1,062,739,343,000.0
117,357,000 $1,633,972,429,500.0 $2,723,287,382,500.0
Where ETR is the "effective tax rate" (taxes divided by income) and FTA is the "Fair tax Amount" (amount collected under the program).

Let's modify this so that the folks in the lowest 20% are excluded:
Number Spending income S/I 0.33 ETR FTA
23,441,000 $19,120 $9,676 198% $- 0% $-
23,477,000 $28,921 $25,546 113% $9,543.9 37% $224,062,844,610.0
23,448,000 $39,098 $42,622 92% $12,902.3 30% $302,534,068,320.0
23,497,000 $54,354 $67,813 80% $17,936.8 26% $421,461,459,540.0
23,494,000 $90,469 $147,737 61% $29,854.8 20% $701,407,966,380.0
117,357,000 $1,649,466,338,850.0

Notice that the etr has gone up for everyone that pays taxes, but that it has gone up the most for the people who earn the least. If we exclude the lowest 40%, the situation gets even worse:
Number Spending income S/I 0.38 ETR FTA
23,441,000 $19,120 $9,676 198% $- 0% $-
23,477,000 $28,921 $25,546 113% $- 0% $-
23,448,000 $39,098 $42,622 92% $14,857.2 35% $348,372,563,520.0
23,497,000 $54,354 $67,813 80% $20,654.5 30% $485,319,256,440.0
23,494,000 $90,469 $147,737 61% $34,378.2 23% $807,681,900,680.0
117,357,000 $1,641,373,720,640.0

So think about it. If your "consumer unit" (i.e., family) makes $46,000/year, then you would be taxed at 35% under the "Fair Tax" plan, while Romney's would be taxed at 23%. Is that truly fair?

John

[1] The legislation, HR 25, specifically calls for a 30% tax rate (23% of the total bill, tax inclusive); however, this is not enough to make it revenue neutral. The 75% found above is a BOTE calculation; economists have estimated that a more exact value lies near 40%, based on estimated rates of evasion and other factors.

[2] Try turning this into an excel spreadsheet for true geek fun!
I'm really having trouble following your numbers. The format sucks! Can you start a new post and put it in a table where it can be more easily read. I get your argument, I just can't follow your data.

I'm really having trouble following your numbers. The format sucks! Can you start a new post and put it in a table where it can be more easily read. I get your argument, I just can't follow your data.

Apparently Vox will not allow tables and won't take them out once it has them in. But I've added an image of the data. I'd encourage you to plug the numbers into a spreadsheet in Excel and play with them by changing the assumptions.

John
The image clears it up completely as I was having trouble figuring out your headers and getting them lined up with the numbers.

Thanks. 8:-)
yes, thank you for the clarification.

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