Actions, Consequences

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Crap. I just spent twenty minutes responding to his very interesting post and then did something weird with my mouse and all my wisdom is lost forever. I'll respond later with a slightly less awesome comment.

Crap. I just spent twenty minutes responding to his very interesting post and then did something weird with my mouse and all my wisdom is lost forever.

Frustrating, isn't it? I've hit the "BkSp" without being in the text frame and lost a post more than once.

Ah, well - at least you think this is interesting!

John
legal, safe, and never used
A great ideal. No matter how well educated and prepared, there are sick people who sexually abuse family members and rape strangers. As someone who knows this all too well, I'm not comfortable making decisions for others, which is why "legal" is so important.





sexually abuse family members and rape strangers

The incidence of pregnancy from these occasions is very low. In fact, lumped together they account for 2% of all abortions...if we're being generous.
Should we deny children life because their father was a rapist? I think not.
I am an adult survivor of sexual attacks during more than a decade of my childhood. I cannot be more decent than telling you that and walking away.

Should we deny children life because their father was a rapist? I think not.

Should we force the woman to be continually raped for nine months? From their point of view, that is exactly what being forced to carry their rapist's child to term is - an extension of that rape.

And your numbers are low. According to a study in the American Journal of Obstretic Gynecology, the incidence rate of pregnancy from rape is 5% and an astonishing 32% of those who became pregnant did not discover it until the second trimester.

John

As someone who knows this all too well, I'm not comfortable making decisions for others, which is why "legal" is so important.

Yes. Making it unlawful doesn't stop it and does cause more harm. And too many of the folks in favor of making it unlawful seem unwilling to take the steps to make it unecessary.

My sympathies on being a survivor. I am glad to know you and to know that you have become a strong person despite the evil that was done to you.

John

I have sympathy for you, but I cannot concede that my life or your life is worth more than the life of a developing child. I believe we cannot assign value to life in that way, and so we cannot choose between a child and its mother. A child that resulted from a crime is blameless. The only way to reason that it is acceptable to abort that child is to deny its humanity, which is exactly what a rapist or abuser does to their victim.

For what it's worth, I believe in life imprisonment for child molesters. I would not argue against the death penalty, either.

Should we force the woman to be continually raped for nine months? From their point of view, that is exactly what being forced to carry their rapist's child to term is - an extension of that rape.

The child is blameless. I can't deny that it is a terrible ordeal, but I also can't cotton to the idea of adding another victim to the situation.

And your numbers are low. According to a study in the American Journal of Obstretic Gynecology, the incidence rate of pregnancy from rape is 5% and an astonishing 32% of those who became pregnant did not discover it until the second trimester.

My numbers were abortions because of rape and incest, not pregnancies resulting from rape. Here is a fairly recent paper on the reasons given for abortion.

The child is blameless. I can't deny that it is a terrible ordeal, but I also can't cotton to the idea of adding another victim to the situation.

We are losing sight of the intent of this thread. It is not to debate the rightness or wrongness of abortion; we will take is as a matter of fact that abortions will happen so long as pregnancy happens. The intent of this thread is to come up with ideas on how to reduce the number of abortions by reducing the situations that lead to them. In the case of rape, the obvious solution is to reduce the number of rapes by imposing stricter punishment on the rapists.

John

the obvious solution is to reduce the number of rapes by imposing stricter punishment on the rapists.

Ever see the new Casino Royale?
Sorry - soapbox time - I snipped it short, and I'll post my whole rant about this on my blog - but here's the gist:

I could never ask a woman to risk her life for a pregnancy she did not want. I could never ask a woman to shoulder a lifetime responsibility she does not feel she can bear with grace.

I believe that abortion is the taking of a life, but it is not murder.

The reality of abortion is not black or white. It is not good or evil. It is human struggle, filled with blood and grief and fear and pain and humiliation. Nobody plans to get pregnant just so they can have an abortion. Abortion is not used as a primary method of birth control, not by any sane, valued being.

And that brings us to what our society would consider the dark side of abortion and what I consider the bright side of it. Relief. Abortion is a safety valve for families. The choice to abort or not allows the woman and her family freedom and safety. It is a considered action that dignifies the value of human life and the human soul by considering all parts of the equation and not just the one unknown cipher. Like any act of great human consequence, there are times when abortion is the right and only thing to do, and times when it is a terrible mistake. The pregnant woman is the only one who can make that decision, and once made, we, as a society, cannot ethically and morally judge her choice, not and remain a moral and ethical society.

Who are we to second-guess her choice, a choice that is never as simple or easy as it sounds?

We have the wealth, the technology, and the ability to make every child born a wanted child, to prevent unwanted pregnancies, to safely abort dangerous or unwanted pregnancies, to provide support while any children are entirely dependent upon the mother, to make families stronger and safer.

We don't.

There are those who will cry out, "But what about the father's right to choose?"

And to them I answer: The father's right to choose takes place before the act of coitus and orgasm. Once he decides to squirt his sperm and conception occurs, he hands over the decision for what happens next to the woman. It is her body, her life, her family, her community, her spiritual well-being that informs her decision. She may choose to allow him a part in her decision, but it is ultimately and completely her decision, and it will remain hers until we develop something along the lines of the Bujoldian uterine replicators. When we have artificial wombs that put no woman's life at risk to carry a baby to term, that involve no woman's emotions, bodies, or families; then men can decide to take custody of the embryo, grow it in the artificial womb, and raise it themselves.

So, as you say, John, consequences have acts that lead to them, and pregnancy - and potentially abortion - is a consequence of an act.

When women can walk away from the pregnancy as easily as men can, then men can decide.

I believe that abortion is the taking of a life, but it is not murder.

This is why abortion supporters try to dehumanize the fetus. Because what you just said makes no sense. A human life isn't like a lame cow or a sick dog, especially one that has never even had the chance to get lamed up. You've taken an exceedingly dangerous view of the situation here. Dangerous to your argument, that is. You must deny the humanity or you take the position that human life can be judged in terms of relative worth, which would put you in the company of some of history's less savory characters. So go find a spine and take a principled stand. Abortion is wrong because it takes a human life, or it's not because not all human life deserves the chance to continue. Then you try to stop slipping down that pretty little slope.
addendum: You are a what?

Like any act of great human consequence, there are times when abortion is the right and only thing to do, and times when it is a terrible mistake.

It is never the only thing to do, and there is still quite a bit of debate about whether it is ever right.

The father's right to choose takes place before the act of coitus and orgasm.

So a woman has no say in whether she has sex? And a husband who helps conceive a child in good faith has no say if the wife should, say, changer her mind? Good luck staying married after that.

it will remain hers until we develop something along the lines of the Bujoldian uterine replicators

I don't even know what those are, but they sound like something I saw in a Superman comic once.

When we have artificial wombs that put no woman's life at risk to carry a baby to term, that involve no woman's emotions, bodies, or families; then men can decide to take custody of the embryo, grow it in the artificial womb, and raise it themselves.

I'm beginning to think you have something very wrong with you.

When women can walk away from the pregnancy as easily as men can, then men can decide.

Men have just as much at stake as women, if you acknowledge that they are actual humans, which you do. It's not all about economics. Men are intellectually capable of making rational arguments about things they cannot experience, such as little strings that hold the universe together, or what would happen if a person stepped on Jupiter with no protection. Women should stop being sexist about this issue and allow that just because they get pregnant doesn't mean they have a lock on the issue.





John, I promise I'm going to make a substantive post about your proposals, but I felt compelled to respond to this first.

1. Personal responsibilty
Personal responsibility is an essential component in reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. This also includes parental involvement.
2. Education
My position on sex education is that I should be able to educate my child at home about contraception and proper sexual conduct. I don't want the government telling my children how to do anything. However, if they learn the mechanics of sex at school then I don't have a problem with that. I think that the main thing to stress at school is that sex leads to pregnancy, and that you should talk with your parents about it at home. We should encompass the beliefs of all parties by putting the ball in the parent's court. As I like to say, "Just the facts, please."
And if the parents can't be bothered, that's a whole separate issue...
3. Care
I agree with you that prenatal care is essential. I would favor government supported prenatal programs for women who would otherwise not receive any care or would have difficulty obtaining it. The danger is that women would be given handouts, welfare. I kind of think that the only people who really deserve welfare are those who are in the womb. So I'd also favor them entering some sort of program where they weren't just handed funds, but had their needs met instead.
I would also stress the fact that Americans are the most generous nation on earth. Charity is part of our culture, and if we increased our efforts to supporting women then that would drastically reduce the number of abortions. I believe that firmly.
4. Social support
Despite your defeatist attitude about teens having sex, I tend to agree that they should not be demonized for their mistakes. A consistent ethic of life will allow that people make mistakes and should be forgiven. I think having them do diapers is awesome.
By the way, a good conservative will always find something to demonize. In this case, it would be our sex-saturated culture, which I partly blame for attitudes we see in today's youth.
But the woman, and by association the child, should never be punished for her mistake...that is inconsistent.

And if the parents can't be bothered, that's a whole separate issue...

But a very real issue that must be addressed.

When women can walk away from the pregnancy as easily as men can, then men can decide.

Men have just as much at stake as women, if you acknowledge that they are actual humans, which you do.

Are you trying to claim that men don't walk away from these situations? They do it every day. Wanna know more? Send me a PM and I'll tell you all about it.
I believe that abortion is the taking of a life, but it is not murder.

This is why abortion supporters try to dehumanize the fetus. Because what you just said makes no sense.

Sure it does. Not all killing is murder. There is justifiable homicide, manslaughter, and negligent homicide, to name just a few legal distinctions.

So go find a spine and take a principled stand.

Let's restrict ourselves to commenting on the ideas, not personalities.

addendum: You are a what?

She is a numenist. As a matter of fact, she would be the equivalent of a bishop in Numenism if they went for that sort of thing (which they don't). She has written many of the treatises on their faith, and has studied others extensively (for example, her knowledge of Roman Catholic dogma makes mine look pale and wan in comparison).

Like any act of great human consequence, there are times when abortion is the right and only thing to do, and times when it is a terrible mistake.

It is never the only thing to do, and there is still quite a bit of debate about whether it is ever right.

Yes, there are indeed times when it is the only choice - unless you would doom two to die instead of one.

The father's right to choose takes place before the act of coitus and orgasm.

So a woman has no say in whether she has sex? And a husband who helps conceive a child in good faith has no say if the wife should, say, change her mind? Good luck staying married after that.

Neither of those are what she said.

it will remain hers until we develop something along the lines of the Bujoldian uterine replicators

I don't even know what those are, but they sound like something I saw in a Superman comic once.


They are an artificial womb, currently being studied by several scientists. Bujold is a writer who has made great use of them as a way to avoid abortion (something that she is emphatically against) even in cases of rape and congenital damage.

John

1. Personal responsibilty

Personal responsibility is an essential component in reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. This also includes parental involvement.

Amen! There would be no need for sex education in schools if parents would teach their kids about the birds and the bees themselves. Unfortunately, most parents apparently can't be bothered (or can't be bothered to get the facts, as opposed to what they learned on the streets).

2. Education

My position on sex education is that I should be able to educate my child at home about contraception and proper sexual conduct. I don't want the government telling my children how to do anything.

See my previous comment. However, the last comment seems contradictory to the next. If you don't want the government telling your children how to do anything, then how can it be ok for the government to tell them the mechanics of sex? (Unless you mean the bare essentials of sex-based reproduction and the many variants seen in the natural world.)

And if the parents can't be bothered, that's a whole separate issue...

And one very strong tine on the fork of this particular problem. Too darn many parents will ignore their child's education until the child fails/gets in trouble/gets pregnant - and then it is anybody but the parent's fault. (Yes, personal responsibility starts with the parents. [1])


3. Care

I agree with you that prenatal care is essential. I would favor government supported prenatal programs for women who would otherwise not receive any care or would have difficulty obtaining it. The danger is that women would be given handouts, welfare.

What's the problem with that, as long as the handouts are tailored to ensure a healthy child? If giving live birth is so important, should our society work to increase the number of live births by providing the mothers with no monetary excuse not to take optimum care of their fetus?

I kind of think that the only people who really deserve welfare are those who are in the womb. So I'd also favor them entering some sort of program where they weren't just handed funds, but had their needs met instead.

You've never eaten "government cheese", I take it? There is no program so good that someone, somewhere won't find a way to pervert it (ala, short-changing welfare coupons for cash). But is that a reason to deny the aid to those who won't misuse it?

I would also stress the fact that Americans are the most generous nation on earth. Charity is part of our culture, and if we increased our efforts to supporting women then that would drastically reduce the number of abortions. I believe that firmly.

Easy to check. Compare the abortion rates in counties with strong pregnancy support charities to those with weak ones, and see what happens.

4. Social support

Despite your defeatist attitude about teens having sex,

The word you are looking for is "realist", as in "based on the facts". The fact is, teens have sex. Let's teach them to do it without getting pregnant or catching an STD - and then get their parents to keep a strong enough watch on them so that the teen never has the chance to have sex. (Yes, I blame Britney's mom for her and her sister's pregnancies. Why do you ask?)

By the way, a good conservative will always find something to demonize. In this case, it would be our sex-saturated culture, which I partly blame for attitudes we see in today's youth.
But does that make them a good conservative, or merely one who agrees with the others?

John
[1] One of about sixteen million reasons why I am not a parent...

I would like to say one thing about the education part of this. If parents feel strongly that they don't want the government teaching their kids about condoms and STDs and the like, then homeschooling is an option for them, particularly now as more homeschooling options exist online. Private schools are another option. If you want to have the final say about what your child is or is not taught, then teach them yourself.

However. Most parents have neither the time, the ability, nor the inclination to teach their kids this information. Because most children currently get most of their education from public schools, the concern and focus there has to be less on private decisions and personal morality (although those can and should also come into play--as has been noted, most people support teaching abstinence plus) and more on public health. STD transmission and unwanted pregnancies are public health concerns, i.e., the less we have of them the better off we are as a society. I believe it is the responsibility of our public institutions, including public education, to do the things that are, in general, better for society as a whole. Because this is America, anyone who disagrees with that is free to find alternative schooling (including, certainly, religious schools).

Are you trying to claim that men don't walk away from these situations? They do it every day. Wanna know more? Send me a PM and I'll tell you all about it.

Not at all. Merely wanted to say that just because some men are sacks of crap doesn't mean fathers should be kept out of the decision-making process. Especially husbands!

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John

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